Discussion about electronic communication with riders during race

[JacobHyatt]

There was a discussion about the legality of using electronic communication with riders during the race. This will be a place for discussion on the pros and cons of this technology.

The series currently does not have a standalone rule regarding this matter, and refers to the AMA rulebook for guidance on this issue. The AMA does not allow any electronic communication in any of the series that it oversees.

Please feel free to comment below and this will allow for better decision-making going forward.

[TXC510]

From a safety stand point - I think it should be allowed

[wfopete]

Can anyone tell me the rational of why the AMA does not allow pit to rider communications? There might be a good reason.

Personally I see it as nothing but a cheater tool.

AFA the safety aspect; jeez we're racing dirt bikes. How is it going to improve safety?

Daddy I've fallen and I can't get up! Oh crap, I'm bleeding out; come help me!

[TXC510]

Safety always wins in a life or death situation. How could it hurt - Also, how can you cheat ?
Personally, I really don't care about the issue, but I do see benefits. Especially with the Schoolboy class.
Racing can be risky, why not add a tool that could minimize that risk. Or, at least give a jump on a situation.
If my kid was racing out in the woods - I would like to know that if he got in trouble - it might be able to be mitigated quicker with timely info.
Pete - You summed it up without knowing - "Daddy I've fallen and I can't get up! Oh crap, I'm bleeding out; come help me!"

P.s. Maybe Police, Firemen , EMT folks don't need Radios either - that's just Cheating.

[Jeremy Allmon]

I personally think the only ones on the race course that need electronic communication is the designated sweep riders.
If a racer has the ability to communicate this way they could easily sway their AP score and as a parent I understand about worrying about your child being out there hurt but you have to trust that sweepers and other racers will help them the people involved with our series are really good at making sure everyone out there is ok

[wfopete]

Well if we are going down the safety road here are some other options...

The series needs to look into securing sponsorship with the My Pillow Company & Garmin. That way each rider could be equipped with an Garmin inReach device so they could notify the scoring folks if they need help. The inReach would also show the exact location of the rider in need. The My Pillow company could supply the series with pillows that can be strapped to trees and placed over rocks in case a rider hits either one.

Mandatory Helmet Inspections Each rider's helmet when scanned at sign up will be inspected for signs of damage. Riders with suspected damaged helmets or helmets more than 5 years old will not be allowed to race.

Every rider has to show proof of passing a Motorcycle Safety Foundation Off -Road safety course. Also riders over the age of 50 need to show proof of passing a cognitive test. After all we can't risk having a bunch of old people out there with diminished mental capacity.

Everyone knows that speed kills. Therefore class skill levels need to incorporate speed limits. For example "C" class riders would not be allowed to exceed 30 miles per hour at any point on the race course. "B" level riders would be limited to 35 miles per hour and so on.

Riders currently in or retired from law enforcement, military, firefighting and other high stress occupations need to be evaluated for signs of PTSD before being allowed to compete. Because you never know when one of them might crack and pose a risk to themselves or other riders.

Heck let's just go for a virtual AHSCS system. Just stay at home with your AHSCS game controller and forget about all that risk stuff ;-)

[Boodles58]

Sweeper radios would be nice. Racers no, too many ways to alter outcome of race

[TXC510]

As always - too much idiocracy on here - No real discussion.

[Jason Harmon]

Has anyone had any hands-on experience any with helmet radios where you can actually communicate with each other more than a few hundred feet away?

[tashasims66]

OK, so I was not going to get into this discussion but after reading some of the comments, I now feel obligated to answer some questions and make comments on others since I am the reason for this. This is a long discussion so I hope everyone reads it through because I think it will answer everything. Let me just start out by saying that SOMEONE made an allegation about my son cheating. You know who you are and I know who you are. My son does not need to cheat to beat your sorry butt and if you are man enough to make that accusation, you are not man enough to say it to my face. And the next time you want to make allegations about someone cheating, you should look in the mirror, yes, you were caught...enough said, you know who you are. My son is honest and ethical, He has morals and genuinely cares about people. Neither of us would do anything to purposely violate any rules. Before we used the equipment, I looked all through the AHSCS rules and did not find anything about communication with the rider being a violation. The main reason we decided to try it out is so we could stay in touch with each other not only for the safety of both my adult kids but also for any other riders who may be out there. Sweepers are fine but what if a sweeper just rode through the area and it's a 10-mile course? Maybe a rider fell and got hurt just after the sweeper came through. If a rider is on the back side of that it could be 30 minutes before anyone is properly notified and then someone has to figure out where that person is located...Ask Jimmy Wade about how to find a downed rider who is hurt really badly. We decided to look into radios after I broke my femur, which luckily, occurred right out in the middle of everyone at the start line but what if this would have been toward the back of the course?

As for cheating, wfopete, I am really sorry that you have that kind of attitude and that little faith in our membership to think this could be used for cheating. If that is what you think of our membership then I guess maybe you should not use the equipment. Anyone who thinks the radios could be used by members to be dishonest, cut the course or cheat the AP has a very low image of any of our riders. I tend to think our group is way above that except for a select few (see above comment, no names). And besides, that, trying to figure out exactly where you are on the AP has to be calculated by the overall racer and there is some kind of mathematical calculation that I dont know if anyone actually has except the moto tally program. It is virtually impossible to figure out your AP during the race. I have spoken with numerous riders about this issue and one way to avoid any appearance of impropriety is for others to be on the same channel. Some of the women discussed that maybe all of them have the radios and all on the same channel along with whoever else in the pit area. This would eliminate any problems with someone trying to cheat because the conversation is not private, it s up for anyone to hear. Also, there is no way any of the women would intentionally cheat, their standards are too high and they have too much respect for each other and each one's riding ability. Another reason is that most of the time I am a one-man pit crew. Now that both Justin and Madee are riding long course, I am in the pits by myself. We do not have a crew like some of the other riders with mechanics, gas crew, water crew etc. Its all on me for both riders. If one of my riders calls on the radio, with equipment issues and needs a tool, I can be ready with an 8 mm socket or a pair of pliers. Maybe a new camelback with Gatorade...not water...if asked for it over the radio. That is not cheating, matter of fact, that will get my riders back out on the course faster to keep up the AP. On the contrary, if my rider had to stop and then yell to get an 8 mm socket, I might have to run to get the toolbox, find the socket and get it to the rider all the meanwhile, my rider is losing time which is NOW bringing down the AP. With radios, several minutes could have been saved keeping the AP higher. That being said, I would also volunteer to assist any other rider who would like to be on the same channel as my two kids and listen to what we say and then also let me know that they need a tool or some water or Gatorade... if they do not have a pit crew. There are so many other examples that could be cited but I will leave that up to your imagination. But, radios can actually improve the AP and make a rider faster. You cant have it both ways.... Anyone can sandbag without a radio and a lot of riders can improve their AP with a radio just by letting the pit crew know beforehand what might be needed to fix something on one of the bikes. All that is fine and good but it is the safety I am mostly concerned about after my accident. I do not want anyone to have an accident and go through the pain I had for any longer than they have to and if some riders out there have radios or a lot of riders have radios, its that much sooner the rider will get help and get out of pain.

TXC510---I hope you find my discussion so far more helpful than some of the other comments by those that think this is a laughing matter. And by the way pete if you can get My pillow Guy to put pillows on all the trees and rocks you go right ahead. So to answer your question about the AMA guidelines. I did quite a bit of research after it was brought to my attention that radio communications could not be used. Here I am going to cite the AMA rule which I did not know about prior to TimberRush.

AMA 4.2 A. 7. Receiving any form of prohibited outside assistance, including, but not limited to, receiving radio transmissions while in competition.

That said, The rule does not mean only radio transmission, it also means any "outside assistance". As I researched it, that means parents are not allowed to start their kids motorcycles, whether the kid is 7 or 17. That also means any mechanic work needs to be done by the rider and only the rider and no one can hand a bottle of water to a rider...I can go on and on. "No outside assistance". Don't get me wrong, this is not what I am suggesting as I think we all need some help at times but if rules are going to be enforced, then we cannot just pick and choose which ones to follow and which ones we do not follow because of who it might effect. And, as I continued to really read the rules, I found that there are several AMA rules that are violated constantly. But if we just focus on this one rule which is the rule about outside assistance and radio transmission, then we either need to enforce the rule as a whole and there is not to be any more rider assistance during a race or continue to allow outside assistance which includes the use of radio transmission for those who want to use it to better themselves. AMA rules also address these other penalties/issues which is a no-brainer but just thought I would bring it up for those who think radios can lead t sand bagging.

AMA 4.2:
18. During a race, a rider must always attempt to succeed. If not, they shall not be allowed to continue the competition
and may be penalized by the referee.
19. Engaging in any unfair practice, misbehavior or action deemed by the referee or the AMA to be detrimental to the
sport.


Again, to address wfopete, your comment is sickening. I can not even imagine one of my children or any other child or rider "bleeding out" and laying there by themselves with no way to call for help. Your comment is disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself!!! This is a family event and a family atmosphere. Most of us come for the fun of it. I started coming over 10 years ago because of the wholesome atmosphere and the way everyone helped everyone. Its comments like you made that have no place in our sport... This is not a dog-eat-dog association. It is weekend fun with weekend friends. It is getting together and creating memories. Your comment is not useful.

As far as why AMA has the no radio communication rule, I did research on that as well and there are a few reasons but all the reasons are focused on MX, not HS. "In 1988 several teams experimented with radio communications between their riders and the team, including the 1988 Motocross des Nations team, but the AMA felt that it would be a distraction and that it would force every rider to have radio contact. Given that the radios had to be small enough to fit on the rider’s helmets and each have their own frequency, it was deemed unfeasible for 40 mechanics to be chattering away at the same time—nor could the radios support that breadth of channels needed. So, midway through the 1988 season, the AMA passed rule 1.15b, which states, “Electronic transmitting of information, including radio communication to or from a moving motorcycle, is prohibited.” There were exceptions for transponders for scoring, video transmitted for television use and electronic timing devices." https://motocrossactionmag.com/ask-the- ... g-vietnam/

So there you have your answer as to why the AMA made the rule, it was based on MX and the close proximity of all the racers, and the crew on a MX track that is not spread out like a HS course is. On top of that, any radio back 34 years ago was huge and if they had to put the radios on a helmet, it probably affected the riding ability due to the additional weight and bulkiness. But, that was 34 years ago. There has been so much technological improvement since then. I can understand why it was done back then but the advancement to today is much different. The other problem is the pit crew was constantly inside the rider's ear which was distracting for an MX rider and not as much for a HS rider. For those of you who say it is a distraction, then don't get one. For others, set down rules for your pit crew on when someone can talk. I also have made contact with another series in Texas and asked about their policy regarding radios, I was told several of their riders use radio communication and it is a good deal. No one has a problem with it and they have never had anyone trying to cheat by using the system. Matter of fact, the person I was speaking with was trying to figure out how it could encourage cheating. He agrees that if an association has members who are going to cheat, they do not need radios to do it.

I can tell you that the discussion I had with Justin when we first started testing the system was that he will talk to me if he needs something. I do not communicate with him unless he needs me to answer then it is only a short answer back. Other than that, I am silent so I do not disturb his concentration. That is something that needs to be discussed between the pit crew and rider as far as how much communication the rider wants. Each rider is different.

To end my discussion and to answer Jason Harmon's question, Yes, I have used and tested the system. I purchased the Rugged Radios R1 Digital with Business Band with the moto kit and the long-range antenna. What is cool with that you do not have to buy a license as Rugged Radios has the license which authorizes the user to use the channels under their purchased license so no testing and no expensive government license. I originally purchased a different set but it hardly transmitted more than a few hundred feet. We then went to the R1 which is digital and the LR antenna. At Timber Rush, during practice, Justin called off each mile marker all through the course. I heard him throughout the entire course. Very impressive. Now that doesn't mean that it will be the same for every race as some or more hilly but if there is a group on the same channel and one of the members is out n the course, their radio will act as a repeater between the other radios. I do have our radios still although not in my possession right now. I loaned them to another rider but I can get them back. If anyone would like to try the system and see how they like the setup, I would be happy to loan it to you. I purchased the entire system which was two R1 radios, 2 LR antennas, the moto kit, and a headset for me for about $300. This is a very powerful system. The rider has a push-to-talk button which we set up near his left thumb on the handlebar. If you would like to try it, please call me 501-372-2202.


Back to my original soap box, and the individual who made the accusation about my son cheating, you are more than welcome to apologize. If this passes and we are allowed to start using radio communication, you will not have to worry about Justin continuing to beat you because he will most likely be moving to A35. The system will allow him to quickly get in and out of pits and not just sit there waiting for tools because I will already know what he wants and have it ready. But do not ever accuse my kids of cheating (again) because this mama bear won't sit idle on the sidelines again. Have a good day.