YEM topic AP and Class Champ Move UP

[Travisdupriest]

Postby gduncan » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:41 am

Advanced percentile are not working in my opinion. We have raced 4 years and loved 2 of those. The others have been mared with people playing the system. Some show up at a few races and others win several, if not most in lower classes but stay undetected by raceing just fast enough to maintain there position. I feel a cumutative score should be added to moving people up.
1. If you win, or finish top 3 in over half the races in a season you should move up.
2. Winning or top 3 every time you show up you should move up.
3. Multiple championships should not be allowed in the same class.
4. Champions from other series or motocross should not be in lower classes repeatedly.
5. When the rules say you can run a lower class SHUT UP AND RACE!

Postby ZacCrowl » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:53 am

I think AP's work great. When you look at the AP's and the respective classes, they are nearly perfect. I am absolutely all ears if anyone has a better system than the current one. I do know that you can be at the bottom of your AP for that class and get beat by a guy running at the top of that AP for the class, but I see no way around that.

Many of our classes only have 3-6 entries every race. So some guys are always gonna finish top 3, they should not be penalized and made to move to a higher class.

Since we don't allow a forced move to AA class, multiple championships in a class are unavoidable. I won 2 in A-Vet. The AP for A-Vet and A-open are the same, so a move would have been pointless.

When a person from another series runs our series, its very difficult for the signup ladies to police where they should sign up. That would require them personally knowing each racer and their results in other series. Often times us racers know this because we follow our competition, but signup likely does not. The other Arkansas series does not enforce any AP rules, even though their rules state as such, so most guys run pro to get paid, even though they are probably not "pro" material in our series. Nothing we can do about that. As far as motocross, I've not seen too many MX guys come beat a HS guy.

We should not be a series or sport that gives a "participation trophy", we are all gonna lose at times and there is always going to be someone either older or younger than us that is just plain faster. Championships take an entire year of consistency, not just one or two good races

Postby Rob » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:19 am

I have always heard of problems with riders not being in the "Right" class in my 40 years of racing. The AP has been the best system so far but it is not perfect. Monitoring is important and the best at doing that is from other racers. A polite suggestion to the racer or a e-mail to the Scoring Director usually gets results. Another neat thing with the AP is that the system knows how you did overall so when you move up it "places" you in the next class correctly.
Everyone has a good day or a track they like. A few good races should not make them move up. The average and class APs is a good standard.
I respect that a rider can go fast on a day but the ones that tie together a whole season into a Championship and then do that for like say 4years like Parker, They have something special.

It gets really tough bring a Schoolboy rider into the mix with out a AP to know what class he should go to. Plus you don't really know how much or fast a teenager will improve. They have to learn that they will not be winning as much as they once did. By racing with faster riders they learn more from chasing them then by leading. So my 14 year old (next year) will be going into B Class. He won't win but he will learn how to race.

Postby jayriverroad » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:34 am

I agree the AP is a great tool, and is needed, and does help in advancement, But I feel it alone should not set the standard for advancement. The AP is not a 100% fool proof system. I do feel the advancement placement needs to be tweaked, not real sure how to do that but it does not need to run off AP alone. Just as one example, we had a race the AP did not count, I don't understand if the AP is such an important tool and the go to for placement that it got pushed to the side for a race. Several should have been moved after that race, I don't find it fare to the others that did get moved that these riders got a freebee. If something else along with the AP was in play I feel it would have helped this situation along with several other issues. I have had several tell me they don't ride the series for points because of the advancement and class placement, I know it is impossible to make everyone happy, But it seems a good many would like to see if there is a way to improve this system. Zac I agree that this isn't nor should be a series that award just for participating But the way it is set up only a hand full will ever have the chance to win or place in their class at year end. They went one lap too fast one time to be where they are so they got moved and will never be fast enough to ride that class. I understand it is a tough subject, But I feel some good input from everyone then see what we can come up with. May take a look at other ( out of state ) series and see how they do this too, Just suggestion

Postby gduncan » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:49 am

I agree that AP works great. I honestly cant say anyone has been moved unfairly, Kristen and Ruth both have done very good with what is in place. If I had raced many years I would know how to play the AP games but I do not along with many others.
Maybe I am wrong here but its my understanding that AP only moves from b to a class, will not move from open to vet etc.?
That is also true with a to aa?
If you can win a championship in C class you will be competitive in B etc.
Asking scoring to keep track of all this is not what I am asking, if we have rules then most will follow and put themself in the right class.
Schoolboy is another subject all in itself dont get me started on that.
Please understand this will not effect us either way however it does effect many others.

[Travisdupriest]

Post by Zac Crowl:

Gary please look here for how the AP structure breaks us up.

http://www.ahscs.com/results/advancement/


We definitely are open to ideas. The goal is to make a plan that is fair for everyone but we all know there is ALWAY going to be that certain situation that throws a wrench in it.

Jay, the race that was thrown out was only because of the incorrect starting Intervals that apparently happened. We hope to have the tools in place for this to not happen again. We depend on our promoters to educate themselves about all the race specifics prior to their race.
I hate that it happened but we felt like it was our only option regarding AP's.


Also, I don't know how to work the system and really don't know who does. It seems like it would be very hard to be winning your class and at the same time not going too fast to break out, since you would have no idea how fast the fastest guy in the race is going. Honestly I have never given it any thought while racing. I just want to win.

We are listening, please keep telling us what you want. We will do our best to make it happen.

Postby RuthGould » Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:11 pm

I am working on APs for Schoolboy. It will be trial & error the first year, obviously. I have also sent moto-tally an email requesting for him to explain exactly what goes into the software to develop an AP for an individual rider & information on another series who uses this to base class placement.

I don't think this year we have any "champions" that aren't planning to move up. My thoughts about AP is the first year in a class, the AP should be at the lower end, but as the year goes on the average should increase. Those riders at the top of their AP should be breaking out now & ready to advance to the next higher class next year. It's all about improvement. Everyone wants to get faster, right?

I will also add to what I think Rob said. If anyone has anything in regard to someone needing moved, I'm all ears. It's very difficult to keep up with everyone especially this late in the year when it seems like everyone has made the required amount for AP movement. I absolutely have help & am very thankful for it. I get phone calls & texts pretty regularly.

Post by Ruth:

Understanding Moto-tally Advancement Percentile Baselines

MotoTally allows for categorizing racers into classes based on speed. When a race has been completed ALL racers lap speeds are taken into consideration. The top baseline is the average of fastest laps. The rider who rode the fastest laps on average for that race will be the 100% baseline that all other racers laps will be compared. Using a simple example; if 100% for that race is a 24 MPH average and a racer’s average speed was 21 MPH then that racer’s percentile is 87.5. This system enables similar speeds to be grouped together.

Let me try to explain why we are not counting Cedar Creek 2 in the APs for this year. It is important for promoters to start the rows exactly 1 minute or exactly 30 seconds apart. Moto-tally automatically off-sets those rows in the overalls and the averages. It bases speed off lap times. When the rows are started different from the 1 minute or 30 seconds, moto-tally doesn't know this. So when row 1 takes off and the settings are 30 seconds apart, it counts row 2 to take off 30 seconds later, row 3 to take off 30 seconds after that, row 4 to take off 30 seconds off of that... and so forth down the lines. The later the row, the more minutes moto-tally will off-set. If you will notice that a D35+ rider is showing the fastest lap for that race. It is because moto-tally off-set those differences in the system correctly, but the races were not started correctly. This problem is being addressed, but there is no way to go back and fix it because they were not consistent with 1 minute or with 30 seconds.

Postby Rob » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:50 pm

As a Quality Eng. I do a lot of statistical analysis of data to monitor process. After analyzing the AP data from the last few years I find that it holds up pretty well to the Class AP ranges.
Most racers have a gradual improvement in AP that stabilizes and shows only slight improvements after some time.
Typically the younger racers show a steeper incline of the AP. Jumping though many Class AP ranges in a year or two. They also show more fluctuations with crashes or bike problems so their APs reflect many highs and lows and not their true average.
Then we have the racers that show up once in a while with erratic APs that are hard to place in one class.
When evaluating the APs to determine what class would give you the best challenge for the following year. Drop the unusually high or low APs from the data and then refigure your average. Then look at the amount of improvement that has taken place and pick a class that will make you work at chasing down the faster guys, that would help you improve more the following year

Postby gduncan » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:57 pm

My idea is not with AP per say. My issue is having a racer win, or receive 22 points in 5 or more races and not move up. I see both sides of this because I received 22 point for a lot of races in a season without winning a single race. AP aside I moved up after several of my competitors ask me to. I am happy where I am, however not satisfied with myself. I have raced with several that when they show up I know I can not compete. If they are not members they go unchecked. All racers should be a member, JMO. I feel after 100 points or more in a B or C class they should be looked at. AP is easily misled if the faster man simply paces the field then passes them on the last lap.
gduncan

Postby jayriverroad » Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:02 am

I am like Gary, I see both sides. I do think the AP is a great tool, and should continue to use it, but not as the only tool for advancement. I too have seen riders moved that were being beat off the podium, ( this discourages riders of all ages, They feel I cant get on the podium in B and now I have to go to A, just using classes as an example not riders) I have seen riders miss races just so they want break out,( we need these riders ) I have seen riders sandbag races not to break out, I have seen riders start in a lower class knowing they will break out just so they can take those higher points to the next class when they get moved, because they know they cant win that class, but will have 6 races with higher points moved with them. And I agree this is a RACE series, not a show up and everyone get a trophy series, and I like that. But every rider has a peak, they only have the skill to go so fast. JUST USING CLASSES A and B AS SAMPLE CLASSES, it can be applied to any class. If a rider has a 83 to 85 ap, and that is their peak, they cant ride B because the AP says they are too fast. But they are not a fast enough rider to compete A. They start in B, and made the podium several times but not always a 1st place, but they get moved to A and will never be fast enough to get back on the podium.
Every rider has certain tracks they do better on, most of our races are rocky, so they ride 3 race that are not rocky and do well, breakout on those 3 races but the other races their AP is mid to lower average of their class, they get moved due to 3 races only
Once in A you are safe, So not to pick on him, but what if Parker never went AA, we don't have a rider that runs for points that can catch him, hahaha so every A rider would start the year knowing they are beat,
A rider can have a super race where everything clicked, just like they can have a bad race where they wreck, bike broke, or just couldn't get it together, But if they have that odd one or two races that they rode better than THEIR average then the AP catches them.
Again I know racing is racing, But we have some young, new riders to the series that get very discouraged due to being moved before they are ready to move because of ap alone, New and young riders ( 1 to 3 years) of racing are all over the board when it comes to lap times, They can pull some good ones and bad ones, but the few good ones catches them and causes a move.
I really don't know what would be the best way to take a different approach to this, but if we can figure something to be used along with the ap would be nice.

Postby Blyoth » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:25 am

I thought the AP was just a tool that the scoring team used to suggest that a rider may need to move and that the scoring team took a human look to see if the AP was correct.

Postby Rob » Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:17 pm

Class Champs must move up : I think it should not be a hard rule but recommended. Scoring Chair should review.
AP discussion to include short course . Scboy running for just a hour is different than pacing yourself for 2hrs.

[jayriverroad]

A thought, It would need to be tweaked and built on by try this on
Any rider that finishes year end in the top 15 must move to AA or A. If the riders age qualifies him to ride 35+ then they go to A35. I don't fully understand the no forced move to AA, But with this idea any rider finishes year end in the top 5 must move to AA.